A Sheriff Improves his Public Safety Approach: Sheriff Austin Brookwell Addresses Mental Health Crises

Kent: 00:00:00

Hi, my name is Kent Corso and I'm your host for this episode of One Minute Can Save a Life. While I am a licensed clinical psychologist, none of these guests are my patients, nor does anything I say constitute medical advice.

The views conveyed during our conversations do not reflect the views, positions or policies of any private or public organization. This is simply a series of conversations with people who have some connection to hardship, suicide, mental health or loss.

There's so much we can learn from one another. So let's get started. Today our guest is Sheriff Austin Brookwell, the sheriff of Washakie County. Please introduce yourself.

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:00:40

well. I've been sheriff since: 2023

The age of probably kindergarten, first grade time frame. We were born in Las Vegas, but we have family around here. So anyways, my dad was a law officer here for 23, 24 years.

So that's how I kind of got interested in, to becoming law enforcement. So when I turned 22, I was accepted to start in the jail here at Washington county.

And about: 2014

Kent: 00:01:30

Well, we're so excited you've joined us. Thanks again for the quick background. It sounds like you have been in Worland and your family has been there for quite a while.

So you really understand the lay of the land, don't you?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:01:43

I think so.

I mean we're always learning new things about, you know, the owner or 10 sleep and you know, you have two towns here in Washakie county, but always learning new things about it. But for the most part, yes, let's dive right in.

Kent: 00:01:56

As we think about the topic of suicide, suicide prevention, intervention, postvention, I wonder what your experiences have been like when there's someone in the public who is in crisis or distress with suicidal symptoms.

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:02:11

It's really unfortunate that we have this happening in society in general, but anytime it hits in our small town gets kind of, I think, more attention, which is a good thing, I think.

But dealing, dealing with it has always been pretty difficult on how to do it right or you know, am I, if I'm going to say something wrong, is it going to push them this way if I don't do this? Is it going to, am I going to be held liable if they end up killing themselves? And if they do happen to kill themselves before we Are even alerted.

That is really even more traumatizing, I think, to the community and the responders.

Kent: 00:02:56

Of course, we all want to see suicides go down.

It's really frustrating when it seems that we are either improving or we're almost there in preventing one and then happens sort of without us having the time to respond. Right?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:03:12

Yes. Yep.

Kent: 00:03:13

So as a law enforcement officer or a sheriff, whatever seems to be easier to describe. What have you seen in regards to suicide prevention that's working? Where do you law enforcement officers have your hands tied?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:03:26

I think mostly with our hands being tied when it comes to suicides is there's not a lot of training on. On it. I think it's kind of viewed as a taboo topic.

Even though it's one of the leading causes of death in Wyoming, it's a taboo topic to talk about it. And why, I would probably say the reason in Wyoming at least, is we're tough. We do it by ourselves. We fix our problems.

But sometimes, I have learned through my career and through personal experience, is the brain can be your best ally, but your biggest enemy. And I know that's kind of cliche to say, but sometimes cliche things are truth. Even with.

In law enforcement, we have a pretty high, you know, suicidal issue that doesn't get talked about enough.

Kent: 00:04:20

So it sounds like what you're saying is, on one hand, the brain can be a powerful force that when someone's feeling hopeless, it has the capacity to facilitate their suicide.

On the other hand, you're also saying that that same powerful force can bring them out of that dark place and hopefully help them do something more healthy.

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:04:43

Absolutely. That's. I mean, right on the. Right on the head there.

Kent: 00:04:48

Okay. Okay. So when do you think about the concept of suicide prevention and the task of suicide prevention? It's obviously a very complicated one.

And yet you, as a law enforcement officer and as the sheriff, play a unique role. What are the strengths and weaknesses of that role?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:05:05

I think one of the strengths is our response times could be a lot quicker to somebody in crisis. The downside is, like I mentioned before, was training. A lack of training and a fear of being sued.

You know, as I became sure, you go from just deputy thinking, oh, I gotta do my job right? Liability, and all this stuff, and you worry about, did the deputy or myself say something that could get us sued?

Because this, you know, made the person want to do this. And, you know, through training and getting there to help the person is the most important part. Worrying about what was said is not as important.

Kent: 00:05:48

It sounds like what you're saying, Sheriff, is that through training you've gained some clarity in the risk and the liability associated with you helping someone who's in distress, correct?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:06:00

Yeah. And experience just seeing other agents that may have done one thing, end up getting sued, might have thought, oh, they.

I think they did everything right, and they didn't. So you get held accountable that way, which, if you do something wrong, you should be held accountable.

But it's hard to want to be in that position as a law enforcement officer when it comes to a mental health issue, because it's not a crime per se, in Wyoming at least, to kill yourself.

Kent: 00:06:34

So I think I'm understanding. You say something different here. You're saying it's good to not fear liability because you understand what the true risks and liabilities are.

At the same time, you're also saying you have to know what to do, correct?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:06:49

Yes.

Kent: 00:06:50

And so what is it that law enforcement officers can do in a constructive way?

And do you have any examples or experiences dealing with members of the public, obviously, without revealing any identities or people's names or anything like that?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:07:05

Even in our small town of Worland, Heat over there in 10 sleep, we have instances where people have killed themselves or we've had people, you know, make the threat, kill themselves. We've had two juveniles, which. It's a pretty much topic when you start talking about any. Anyone killing themselves.

But when it comes to juveniles, especially when they're still in school, it affects the community. It affects the schools, their kids, law enforcement, and mostly the families. So, yeah, we had two recent ones in.

In Washington county that were pretty traumatizing. Kind of kids didn't expect.

You know, there's this weird thing that you have this expectation of somebody that would do it, that would kill themselves. And from my experience, that's not been a thing. There is no expectation.

Like there is not a certain person that acts a certain way that I think we have this weird stereotype built up in our head. But in this case, they did kill themselves. There's not a lot of tools for us in a small area like this. Not a lot of resources.

You have pretty good one here in Warland that does some mental health help, I would say. But again, we don't have that many resources here to get people help. So they even rely more on law enforcement to be the answer for this topic.

Kent: 00:08:42

So that's a problem, as you describe it, that the resources are limited.

It's a problem that many places in Wyoming and more broadly, rural America deal with where they don't have access to mental health services or if they do, there's a fairly substantial waiting list. So you have taken prosper training, you've also taken crisis intervention team training.

How do trainings like this better prepare you to do more before reaching out to mental health?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:09:13

You can show up, I feel I'm scene, any scene as law enforcement. Have confidence that you know what you're doing or know what you're going to be addressing. I think that gives a good basis for the whole incident.

Knowing that I have this training and the experience that I've gained through attending these horses, dealing with somebody in this suicidal state, I feel more confident doing it before, very knockoff before I took, you know, anything related to the C or involved with prostituting. Very not confident.

Kent: 00:09:49

Can you unpack that for us a little bit? When you say confident, I'm thinking firearms training, I'm thinking use of force training.

I'm thinking, you know, securing the scene of some sort of a conflict. What do you mean by confidence responding to these calls?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:10:06

Confidence, the way I'm using it in, in this instance would be going and speaking with the individual who is suicidal. Not tiptoeing around the issue, just going up, addressing it. Not being the shy like thing. No, I, I heard that, you know, I got told this.

You walk up there, you know, you walk up there and you address it with them straight up. You know, I'm here because you told so and so you going to kill yourself or you know, do you have a plan? What is that plan?

If so, how often do you think of this plan? You know, just get in the down and dirty basis of being in that suicidal state.

Kent: 00:10:49

So previously it sounds like there was more discomfort around discussing it. Maybe you talked around the problem or meandered or were less direct.

And now what you've learned to do is just be matter of fact and direct and ask the difficult questions.

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:11:06

Before it was a how do I not talk to this person and get them out of it being my problem and to a doctor or get them in front of the hospital, get them somebody else. So when I move back to the confidence thing, I feel like I have more confidence after getting the training.

And you know, just like you mentioned the firearms, when you've never shot a pistol before, you're gonna be scared of it. But the more you interact, the more you get around training, the more you're gonna be comprehensive.

I, I want to say just from my experience so far, this is what it is. Get used to training hard topics which is talking to somebody who is ready to end their life.

Kent: 00:11:53

So what we've tried to do is empower people like you, who have a whole toolbox full of skills to manage very difficult situations. But we've empowered you to use additional tools in that toolbox specifically for people in crisis.

And it sounds like you're saying, this is the direction we should go.

Have you found that it's actually worked where you put these into practice and not only you're more confident doing it, but you feel like, wow, there was some positive benefit or positive result?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:12:24

Yes, I, I absolutely. I still thinking about it, get a little emotional. So if I sound like I'm getting cheered up, that's why.

But recently we had an instance where somebody was right on the edge of killing themselves at the last minute, they chose not to. We were called to come talk with the individual. We get there, we establish contact.

The training I had received made me feel like I could talk with this person. I established a rapport and got them to talk about what the plan was, at what stage they were at in the plan.

And then they told me they changed their mind. And that was the moment my brain, where it switched to, I need to talk about what that chi, like, what changed your mind?

So then we discussed why the person changed their mind and it just went awesome. After that, we sat down, talked and talked. I didn't think that titling the person was going to do any good.

So we established who could come sit with them until, you know, better per se.

Kent: 00:13:41

Sort of de. Escalated.

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:13:42

Correct. By the end of the conversation, we were telling joke, we were laughing, having a good old time.

And then the people that he did there arrived and they no longer needed us. So I used quite a few tools that I was taught through the trainings that received prosper. Yes, it was nice.

Kent: 00:14:05

It really, I'm going to be honest, it sounds too good to be true. I mean, it sounds like this, like, oh, my gosh, this person is right on the verge of ending their life.

I swoop in as the sheriff, I ask some questions, and then we're having some laughs. And I don't say that to sound disapproving or in disbelief, but what did you do that was so powerful?

It sounds like you took a very dire, depressing, bleak moment and ended up connecting them with loved ones and sort of handing it off appropriately.

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:14:40

Where was the magic, to be honest? Treating like, human and not somebody that was infected with this zombie virus? I would say just being human, you know, how.

How would I want to talk to if I was under immense pressure to do something.

Kent: 00:14:58

And just because you mentioned titling, you're the sheriff, so you do have some discretion to say, I'm not going to title this person, instead I'm going to do this. Is that correct?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:15:10

Yes. From my understanding of the Title 25 law, nothing says we past two titles. But I can tell you just from this one instance, it's the.

It's the one that has been there since I attended the trainings. I felt I did have to. I walked away feeling confident, and that's.

Kent: 00:15:29

Clearly a better feeling than okay, I guess I have to put you in cuffs and put you in the back of the car and so forth, Right?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:15:36

Yes. That was not going to be pleasant. A lot of cases it's not pleasant. It amplifies everything.

Not saying in this case, but just title 25 in somebody taking away their, you know, or restricting their movement by force would make one more mad. It just adds fuel to their fire. They start thinking they're a criminal when law enforcement starts putting handcuffs off, you know.

Kent: 00:16:05

Right.

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:16:05

And then the next step is where do I take them once they're titled? And jail is the holding facility we have. We do have a nice place locally that take titles, but that after they titled.

So until you're officially titled by a doctor or mental health professional, you're more than likely in jail. And somebody that is thinking about killing themselves shouldn't be placed in the same spot as criminal.

Kent: 00:16:36

Would I hear what you're saying there?

What you're really saying is that we're sending a message when we use the Title 25 system, it makes people feel like a criminal and we sort of treat them like criminals when really what they need is someone to just talk to them like a person. Is that what you're saying?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:16:56

I believe yes. I can see a total need for the title 25 in some cases. But don't think every time somebody is in the suicidal state that they're a title 25 person.

When it comes to law enforcement. You know, like I said earlier, getting to the point of, okay, they're suicidal, I'm not going to deal with this. I need to get them.

I'm going to title 25. I'm. Get them to a doctor.

I don't, I don't think through my training and experience with everyone, I don't have a ton of individuals that I've personally had suicidal issues with, but I don't think that everyone should be titled.

Kent: 00:17:45

It sounds like there's an appropriate time and place and way to title people, but if we're titling them because they are suicidal and we don't have anywhere else to send them or any other way to keep them safe, that's probably not a good use of the system. Something else you said jumps out at me and that has to do with putting someone in the same place that a criminal is. That is prison.

It seems that you're saying that might add an additional stress on someone's shoulders who is already hopeless and, and in crisis, feeling like there's no reason to live.

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:18:21

If you just think about what individual goes through when they're being arrested first place without having this mental health, you know, suicidal crisis, just being arrested in general is overwhelmingly stressful. So throwing the handcuffs on somebody, which, you know, we do it for our safe, they're safe. There's reasons that law enforcement does what we do.

But treating them the same I think just adds on dramatically more stress.

Kent: 00:18:53

I appreciate you saying that you haven't done this many times with an individual who's suicidal, but I also appreciate that you sound optimistic about your ability to work more directly with them and sort of do more for them. If you're expecting that you're going to use these skills more and try this again in the future.

I wonder if there's anyone else, you know who's also been giving it a try and having some success. Any colleagues or friends or family?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:19:22

Yeah. Shortly after one of the first trainings that I received, I'm putting my whole staff through the training.

I want them to have a good basis of knowledge on the handle these kind of incidents. So a colleague, you know, an employee had an issue pretty close at heart to them and they felt pretty confident.

Some of the stuff they just learned on talking with the person that was going through the crisis.

Kent: 00:19:54

Okay, so it's not that they used it on themselves. They use it on a loved one. Not, not in work, sort of in their personal life.

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:20:00

Yep, it was in their personal life and this person told me about it. Not, not in depth, but they had no previous experience before the training they had received.

It was really interesting and kind of inspiring to hear that they just went through this training and they already had a re use some of what they learned and it made them just that confident. You know, they're. They're not going to be, you know, ending suicides around the world time soon, but deal with it in their personal life.

Kent: 00:20:43

I would say it not only sounds inspiring, but impressive that someone who has no experience in this after going through a training says, you know what, I'm going to lean forward and be part of the solution. I'm going to take a risk. I'm going to do something I've never done before. I think it speaks volumes about that person's character, bravery.

I could probably list a few things, but to me, it's impressive that that human being stepped up to the plate. And it sounds like when they did step up to the plate, their loved one was suicidal.

And, and that person was really glad they decided to ask the hard questions.

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:21:22

And, you know, the. That person is still around today. You know, they're. They're alive and well. So it kind of. And same with the.

The one that I talked earlier about, it shows that it's, you know, and I don't know the statistics, that would be your specialty and, you know, the. All that stuff, but I think it showed that if we can get them out of that state, that we can get their brain to work for them against them.

We can just get them out of that five to ten, whatever minute window of where they're just. The world is their enemy and my brain's my enemy. We can get them out of that state. I think we will reduce suicides.

Kent: 00:22:12

That's a fantastic way to close this episode out.

It sounds like what you're saying is if we can help people deactivate that suicidal mindset or interrupt or disrupt that suicidal mindset, we can help people better help themselves. And if we do that more and more across our communities, we can make a dent in suicides.

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:22:32

Yes. For my law enforcement brothers and sisters, it would be if we can disrupt the OODA loop, we get an advantage.

I think a lot of people understand what I mean by that. But in this case, if we can disrupt their suicidal OODA loop, we can get in there and do some good things.

Kent: 00:22:52

Excellent. Yeah. The law enforcement community, as you said earlier, is at higher risk.

So it's not just how we do our jobs in the law enforcement fields, but how we help each other, right?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:23:03

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Absolutely.

Kent: 00:23:06

Well, as we close out, is there anything else you'd like to say to either the law enforcement community or the community at large with regard to suicide prevention?

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:23:15

Yeah, mostly to the community at large. This includes law enforcement.

If you're struggling with mental health and you're tiptoeing around the idea of being suicidal, reach out to get some help. We are very stubborn as a community that we think we can do it ourselves and we can't. We need other people's help. And reach out if you're struggling.

Kent: 00:23:42

Thanks so much, Sheriff. Really appreciate all you're doing.

Sheriff Broookwell: 00:23:45

Thank you.

Tim Brien: 00:23:46

Thank you for listening to this episode of One Minute Can Save a Life. Take care of yourself. Take care of your neighbor. Be bold. Ask the hard questions. Because if you don't, who will?

Tim Brien: 00:23:58

Production support for One Minute Can Save a Life was provided by TKB Podcast Studio. To find out more about our services, go to tkbpodcaststudio. Com.