Understanding the Stigma: A Superintendent's Insights on Mental Health

Doug Hazen: 00:00:00

Foreign.

Kent: 00:00:05

Hi, my name is Kent Corso and I'm your host for this episode of One Minute Can Save a Life. While I am a licensed clinical psychologist, none of these guests are my patients, nor does anything I say constitute medical advice.

The views conveyed during our conversations do not reflect the views, positions or policies of any private or public organization. This is simply a series of conversations with people who have some connection to hardship, suicide, mental health, or loss.

There's so much we can learn from one another. So let's get started. Today. Our guest is Doug Hazen, superintendent of Bighorn County School district number two. Doug, please introduce yourself.

Doug Hazen: 00:00:47

Yeah, thank you. Doug Hazen. I've been the superintendent here in Lovell, Wyoming, or in Bighorn county school district number two for five years.

And I kind of have a unique history with the district. Almost my whole career has been spent here.

I did spend one year in a different district, but I was a first year teacher in this district, taught high school math and then was a principal, special education director as well, and then eventually superintendent. So I've kind of run the gamut.

Kent: 00:01:16

It sounds like you've had a variety of experiences. Can you start out by telling our audience a little bit about the role of a superintendent?

I think many of us hear that title, but there may be some of us who are not really sure what that role and job entails.

Doug Hazen: 00:01:31

Yeah. So kind of in a NutShell, it's the CEO of the district. So you oversee really all aspects of district operations.

So of course we all think of the education side, the instructional teaching side of things, but it's really all right. Now, I also wear the hat of transportation director.

And we're a relatively small district, so that's pretty normal for our administrators to wear multiple hats. But we oversee all operations. I work specifically with the school board on more the larger, bigger decisions, overall operations of the district.

But I can kind of end up having my hand lots of things. So I guess I don't always want to admit it, but you're kind of jack of all trade, maybe master of none.

And again, smaller districts wear all kinds of hats, from, you know, instructional help to, you know, even athletic event. Sometimes. Like to say I've pretty much done all of it aside from maybe I'll wash the tables. And once in a while I've had to help do that too.

Kent: 00:02:32

Does that mean you're the guy who makes the lunches as well?

Doug Hazen: 00:02:34

Yes, actually, I have made lunches one day. I have served lunches before. But one day I actually did sub in our food service Department. I could make a mean bean burrito.

Kent: 00:02:46

Excellent. So either you've got some understandable staffing issues in a small county, or you ascribe to the servant leadership model.

Maybe a little bit of both.

Doug Hazen: 00:02:56

I would like to be able to say a little bit of both. We definitely have our struggles with different staffing issues.

Finding substitutes and bus drivers and custodians and food service workers is difficult, but hopefully people would say also, I'm pretty willing to lend a hand wherever is needed.

Kent: 00:03:14

That's fantastic. So just one more question about your role.

In the same way that a board of directors traditionally is responsible for holding the CEO of a company accountable, is it fair to say that the school board holds you accountable as a superintendent, or am I not really connecting the dots?

Doug Hazen: 00:03:34

Well, that's exactly right.

So that was probably the biggest adjustment for me, moving from a principal type role where I had one direct boss, the superintendent, to the superintendent role where you have a board, in this case for me, seven board members that are collectively your boss. And so that's a bit of a different challenge.

When you're working with a board of people and not just one person that, you know, gives you instructions or so forth. The board collectively has to act to give any one directive or make any specific decision.

Kent: 00:04:10

Got it. And all of these positions are elected or are some of them appointed? No.

Doug Hazen: 00:04:14

For our school district, all seven positions.

Kent: 00:04:18

And is the superintendent's position elected or appointed?

Doug Hazen: 00:04:21

Good question. No. So mine is hired. Maybe say appointed, but it's hired through district by the school board.

Kent: 00:04:30

Okay, great. Well, thanks, Doug, really appreciate that. Would you mind sharing with us what it's like to be the superintendent of School District 2?

You said you're in Lovell, right?

Doug Hazen: 00:04:41

dent of this district July of: 2020

The worst time in human history to try to be a brand superintendent. Our community, obviously, with my history here, has been super supportive of myself, really my family in general.

And so we've had a great experience from really all levels, like I said, done other things I haven't mentioned. I was head high school football coach for nine seasons throughout that tenure. Also was a part time, kind of our curriculum director.

And so just we've been able to have lots of opportunities and successes and I think that our community, of course not perfect in many ways. We have a really supportive community towards the school district. School district's kind of the hub or the main driver of lots of events.

You know, on Friday night when There's a football game. That's where most people are going to be. Same with a basketball game in the winter or track meet in the spring.

And so I think that our committee really rallies around the district, supports the district really well. And again, they would say the same from the district, vice versa. That district tries very hard to support the community and the values.

Kent: 00:05:55

So it sounds like your experiences are a series of adventures, a variety of different contexts, different events, but all in all, it's been a very ride so far. Is that a fair statement?

Doug Hazen: 00:06:08

Yeah, it's been a very positive experience generally. Not to say again, there's always concerns and issues. The role of superintendent is a difficult one, no doubt about that. But overall it's been great.

I know for myself, it has made me grow immensely as a person, just better understanding kind of the trials and tribulations, a lot of difficult situations our families and communities are dealing with, and then have some amount of control or least hand in trying to address or support those situations.

Kent: 00:06:42

So we'd like to hear a little more about the challenges of being a superintendent. But this podcast is also relevant to mental health and suicide and life stressors and hardships.

So if you could explain to the audience just a little bit, what are the challenges that you've seen with regard to mental health in the school system?

Doug Hazen: 00:07:02

I think, you know, the mental health topic has really always been there. I will say that kind of post COVID pandemic.

It seems like that topic has been something that being discussed at greater depth lately, which may be a really good thing in many cases. I think that they're one of the things we see, and I think you see this in all aspects of life, that there's.

There can be a stigma around mental health. And so the same is true within a school system. We can get into talking about resources.

And again, I'm somebody that thinks that our community actually had a fair amount of resources for being a small rural community. We can always have more. But I think there are many resources that are available.

But one of the first challenges I see are making sure that people are aware of them.

And then secondly, even if they are aware, kind of getting back to the idea of stigma, that they're willing to try to reach out and utilize them the best they can, or knowing when they need to utilize and not maybe getting past that point of if you utilize them, maybe up front, you can get ahead of a situation instead of it being a crisis situation if you wait too long. And so I think those are potential pieces within the school that we see I think as well, mental health.

In my opinion, it's such community issue, it's a national issue, it's everybody's issue.

And so sometimes compartmentalizing it into it should be, you know, addressed this way or that way by the school or by community mental health, whatever it is.

I think it's just such a societal issue that sometimes education just general about myths versus actual real life situation and how we can address those.

I think those are barriers we see because myself, for instance, myself in a school counselor, another administrator, a couple years ago we purposefully went to what's called the Ask A conference, I think that's the American School Counselors association conference to better hear what that organization was promoting as far as best practices schools. So I know I was a unique member of that group because there was not many superintendents in those rooms.

Poked fun at my counselor a little bit because I at times I thought they were, they thought they were in a safe place and took some shots at their school administrators. And like, you know, I thought these are nice people, these school counselors. And they were all in a safe room together.

And you know, I was saying, hey, I'm here trying to learn. I think at one point they asked administrators, is there anybody in the room to raise their hand?

And I was with one other and I told them, don't raise your hand, don't raise your hand. We're way outnumbered here. Don't even let them know we're here Anyhow, I mean, I think we've taken very seriously that idea of best practice.

Of course they talk about 250 to 1 as a ratio of students. School counselors, I think we definitely meet that.

We have three full time school counselors, plus we contract with a variety of local people for different pieces. On top of the three full time school counselors we have, I think there's pride in our community and district that we take that very seriously.

But it doesn't mean that all those resources get utilized or everybody recognizes what they are or when the appropriate time to reach out.

Kent: 00:10:23

Resources actually really appreciate that overview.

So what I think I hear you saying, Doug, is that first and foremost we still have stigma and that's a barrier to any kind of mental health initiatives unfolding in a positive and successful way. So I think that's a great sort of flag to throw up and say, hey, we've still got a stigma issue and we've got to work on that.

Second, I hear you saying that getting upstream and preventing, trying to get in front of mental health Problems is by far the best solution. And it sounds like you've had some success in your district doing that.

I also hear you saying that staff ratios, which is a pretty practical workforce type challenge, that that is also part of the solution, and specifically the ratio of school counselors to students. And again, it sounds like you've made some great headway in that area.

You may have even stepped in a landmine or two going to the professional counselors conference. But it sounds like you made the best of it. I do want to drill down on one other thing you said.

I heard you say something about there are many opinions out there regarding who should be responsible for mental health. And then what you said was, it's everybody's problem. And I appreciate what you're saying. It's sort of like fire safety.

Is it fair to say that keeping fires out of our communities and our forests would solely be the responsibility of the fire department?

Or is it the fire department's responsibility to put out the fires and maybe to educate the community, but then the rest of the community plays a role in preventing those fires? Am I out to lunch here or do you think I might be onto something, Doug?

Doug Hazen: 00:12:03

Yeah, no, from my perspective, I think. I think you're on something there. And that's definitely, at least my view from the education world.

Certainly education and school systems play a pretty impactful role in all of those things, similar to how you're talking about firefighters or the fire department.

But definitely, I think from that community side, that parental side, all of us together to address these issues, because it impacts so much more than just one person when you're dealing with anybody, really, with mental health.

And so I think the more we can educate, I of course, believe in education and believe that the more awareness we can bring to it, the more that our parents understand the basics of what good mental health looks like and how to maintain their own mental health, I think often starts there. And things with our students are often secondary to other components that are happening potentially at home.

I think that's something that is hard to talk about. I've heard it put this way, like the idea of when you get on a plane, right, you can't put somebody else's mask on until you put your own on first.

And the same can maybe be said with mental health that often we're not even thinking about ourselves early enough and making sure that our own mental health is strong and taken care of and we're doing the healthy things we need to do to take care of our own. When, you know, if you're working, whether it be a school system or as a counselor or any really profession.

We have others around us that need our attention and love. We can't give our best. We're not at our best. So I think that's why I see it as a big societal issue as well.

Kent: 00:13:43

I love how you say that. It clearly and truly has to start with the parents. Right.

Parents play such a critical role in educating kids from the day they're born all the way through their adult years, whether they are in diapers or in high school or beyond college. And at the same time, parents are human and humans sometimes struggle. So with the most empathy. I say this.

Some parents are struggling with mental health problems.

It's not only a matter that we as parents have different understandings and education around mental health, but some of us actually suffer from mental health, whether it's depression or anxiety or trauma or something like that. So how do we pull the community together to support parents in that way so that they can, as you've said, support their kids?

How do we get parents to put on their oxygen mask first so that they're better capable of helping their kids?

Doug Hazen: 00:14:45

Yeah, that's a great question. And I'm not sure I have. Perfect. So there we discussed it, you know, within our own district.

And there's been a number of things we've tried, which may just be a mental health night where we've brought in local community members that have, you know, whether they're a counselor, law enforcement person or, you know, had a panel and kind of a question answer session, and that was probably more geared toward question and answer about how to support kids. But.

And it got, you know, I mean, of course, when we talk mental health, we can get down lots of rabbit trails of social media to artificial intelligence, you know, all kinds of things that may play a role in mental health. But we've also tried to do some.

And again, this is pseudo parent training, whether, you know, just how to, you know, work with students that might be, or work with kids, their own children, that that may cause and difficulties and so forth. Unfortunately, I would say the things that we've tried often are not always well attended.

We get people have busy lives, which you could then say also contributes to the. Some of the mental health struggles.

We went in on a grant with the state of Wyoming and a few other school districts where we offered telehealth therapy options, which was actually open not just to our students, but to anybody that lived in our school district boundaries. So could have been as long as they had a kid in school, it could have been them as a parent accessing mental health supports.

So we've tried a number of those things and I don't know what the answer is because I can't say any one of them was ultimately a huge success or anything.

But I think the answer, I guess is to continue to try, continue to look for those things, continue to meet people where they're at and make sure that we can have a open, honest discussion about really whatever it is whenever it's needed. So I think as a district we should always be working too support the community.

I think that's one of the functions of school district, obviously to educate kids, but really to be a major support for your community as well.

Kent: 00:16:50

I really appreciate what you just said a moment ago Doug, which is that we have to meet people where they are. When we don't meet people where they are, not only do we jeopardize that long term goal, but we lose their support along the way.

We end up alienating people when we're not meeting them where they are, validating their perspective and then trying to help move together as a group. One of the things that that describes is culture change.

And when we think about mental health, suicide prevention, a lot of these, even social media use and tech, these are social issues, these affect culture.

And if we can't find ways to embrace our culture and move forward together, we're really not going to get there and instead we'll end up in factions or different camps.

Doug Hazen: 00:17:40

Yeah, I think our children are struggling with a number of different pieces.

You know, I, as I mentioned, I think social media piece takes a lot of attention and sometimes probably unfairly get blamed for some pieces because I don't think social media on its own, it's the users, it's the people that are maybe using it inappropriately and or again, I guess I'm always going to kind of be that broken record on education is the key. And so teaching our kids how to use those tools appropriately I think is always part of the answer because I don't think those things are going away.

So I don't think we can block them and ignore them. I think we have to work within the reality of the world we live in.

But you know, whether it be personal self image issues, right, where we see students struggling with that because we can maybe live in an airbrushed world right now.

And so, you know, whether it's just a picture or the idea they have in their head of what they're supposed to look like and they don't or not being included because they're not on this app or that text chain or whatever it might be. I think those things get are still relevant in the educational world.

And then I think it's just overall that there's stressors in life that I suppose I can't even fully imagine going backwards.

And, you know, there's things that show up, I would say on our principals or even my desk sometimes that 20 years ago, 25 years ago, whatever, however many years ago when you were a student, I would have never thought that it would be possible that my principal could be reading something I said last night to my buddy on their desk in writing that, you know, it had kind of my name stamp on it or again, what I was looking at online could be than showing right to my principal or teacher. And so I think there's more pressure, there's more scrutiny on some things too. You write something foolish online, it doesn't go away.

Whereas 25 years ago, if you said something stupid to your buddy, there's really no record of that. Now there's a record of it that lasts forever. I think those pressures also add into it.

We want to make sure our test scores look good and we're getting into the right college.

And I think put all that stuff together and it can wear on you if you don't have strong supports in many aspects of your life, whether that be just another caring adult, whether it be, you know, parents at home, whether it be friends, whatever those supports are that you have. If you don't have strong areas in all those, I think that can also be a stressor for kids.

Kent: 00:20:13

It certainly adds more pressure for the child to know that everything they say is sort of broadcast to the whole world online and it can't be easy for them.

And then it sounds like it makes the system a little more volatile as well, because not only is information out there, but it's so transferable and transportable. So that's got to be really tough.

Doug Hazen: 00:20:37

I think it's tough on both ends. I think it's tough on the kids.

Sometimes it's tough on the administrators as well, because again, you're dealing with more issues where somebody can snap a picture of a text chain or whatever and kind of drop it off where again get you investigating something that really would not have normally been something that we would. The school district would be involved traditionally a number of.

Kent: 00:21:00

So that reminds me, Doug, a few weeks ago, you led a panel at the first ever Youth Mental Health Summit in Teton. This was led by Teton Youth and Family Services of Jackson Hole.

And the conference theme or the summit theme was on youth mental health, particularly how technology impacts our youth. What did you learn at that summit that might inform our audience on this conversation we're having?

Doug Hazen: 00:21:35

I think part of the discussion that I heard and was a part of, I think, is that give and take of, you know, everybody's view on technologies gets intertwined in some of the things we've talked about already, where I think some can see it as inherent evil, some may see it as something, you know, it's the wave of the future, it's good. And where that kind of meshes together. And certainly you've heard a little bit from me that I think combination of things.

I am not one in our district that has tried ban AI or ban everything.

I think that there has to be some amount of bracing that this is something that's coming and we cannot bury our head in the sand and ignore it while we still want to put guardrails and parameters around it and make sure we're teaching our students how to use it safely when it's appropriate. There's probably some age appropriateness to the use of it, so it might be appropriate not have kids using it until such an age.

And so I think again, a combo combination of those things. And that was talked about quite a lot during mine and other sessions.

And I think that those are really useful ideas for parents, educators, again, just citizens in general to be talking about, thinking about and putting into practice.

Kent: 00:22:57

Great. With the few minutes we have left, I'd like to ask your input. Earlier in the show today, you said that everybody plays a role in mental health.

What can people do to improve youth mental health? And you can tackle that question any way you'd like.

If you'd like to talk about sort of different people who might be relevant or different actions people can take, have at it in whatever way works for you.

But I think it'd be helpful to leave our listeners with a few ideas because there's nothing like the power of suggestion to help people maybe move into action.

Doug Hazen: 00:23:35

Well, I think, I mean, my first thought is I think it starts at home. It starts with your own self first and then your own family.

So I think a taking care of yourself, finding those things that work for you and, and being honest with yourself, because I think many people, and myself included, when you're not healthy and when you're stressed and you look for things, I often do things that they're not the best things for me. So if I am stressed, I Look for the crappiest thing, a bag of chips that I can find to eat. And it makes it worse. Right.

But I also know there are healthy things, like to get outside and work out or do whatever that I should be doing. And so putting that emphasis on that, I think is first. And then with your. With students, with your kids.

The idea, and this is probably a topic for a whole different podcast, but teaching resiliency, talking about how we as humans be resilient. And I think the other one is kind. I think there's gotta be a combination of those things.

So we have to be resilient, but we also have to be kind and open and accepting of others at times and not trying to put everybody in a box or whatever to make cookie cutters. Right. I guess I always say, if, you know, you and I are the same, then the world doesn't need you, because they already got me.

So making sure we kind of understand that everybody's a little bit different, and that's okay. That's what we want, life. So I think starting there at home and then you can kind of build from there, but giving our kids opportunities to.

To fail and get back up and to see things from different perspectives, it's positive. Start for that and then get into school and working with others and educating and I guess that's kind of a long way around that question.

But again, summarize, maybe starting at home and then and building from there and keeping the conversation going collectively as a society.

Kent: 00:25:32

That's great. Doug. I hear you saying start at home and more specifically, start with yourself. So it's that old idea of putting on the oxygen mask first.

So try to make the healthy decisions you can. Number one, because the healthier you are, the better you're able to help youths who may be having some mental health difficulties.

Or maybe you can help prevent the mental health difficulties. Second, because you making healthy decisions models good behavior for those kiddos. They're likely to follow your lead in whatever you're doing.

So the better decisions you make, the more likely they are to make healthy decisions. Then I really appreciate what you said after that, which is to try to embrace resilience and foster resilience in the younger generations.

That's so important. And in doing that, recognizing that could mean a whole number of different things. The definition of resilience is sort of bounce back.

When something falls down, how quickly does it bounce back up? But we could interpret that in many different ways and thereby teaching our kids many different skills to keep them resilient.

And then Also, you talked about kindness, and I think that's something that gets lost these days. Whether we are a person of faith or whether we just appreciate humankind to be kind to others is helpful.

Now, that doesn't mean that we can't be assertive. That doesn't mean in sports we can't be aggressive. That doesn't mean we're not going to get angry from time to time or even lose our cool.

But there's a difference between trying to be kind and trying to be unkind. And I think we see much better climate and culture of how our kids learn and grow and interact when we're trying to be kind.

Finally, I really like what you said is we build out from there. Everything starts in the home, and then it builds out through the community.

And so how do teachers, public servants, first responders, medical professionals, heck, the guy and gal who work at the grocery store, how do they conduct themselves? How are they modeling good behavior for our kids? How are they serving as protective factors for the mental health of our kids?

All of those things come together and culminate because no one lives in a vacuum. We live within a community. And make no mistake, kids are super smart.

They're comparing how certain adults behave and conduct themselves and how other adults do. And then they make a choice between who they want to follow.

So if we're all trying to be a bit more positive, hopefully that's going to have a positive effect on their mental health. Am I capturing the depth and breadth of what you're saying, Doug?

Doug Hazen: 00:28:13

Yeah, you're spot on.

Kent: 00:28:14

Well, thanks so much for being with us. Really appreciate your perspective and appreciate your time. Any final words for our audience?

Doug Hazen: 00:28:21

I don't have a whole lot of wisdom left here, but just appreciate the opportunity. Come on, speak again. I hope everyone has opportunity to get out.

You know, summer's coming here, so from a school district perspective, we're, you know, schools out for summer. And again, outside, get some of those rays and hopefully that'll do everybody some good.

Kent: 00:28:42

Thank you for listening to this episode of One Minute Can Save a Life. Take care of yourself. Take care of your neighbor. Be bold. Ask the hard questions. Because if you don't, who will?

Tim Brien: 00:28:55

Production support for One Minute Can Save a Life was provided by TKB Podcast Studio. To find out more about our services, go to tkbpodcaststudio.com.