Why Mental Health Matters: Insights from Governor Gordon

Kent Corso: 00:00:05

Hi, my name is Kent Corso and I'm your host for this episode of One Minute Can Save a Life. While I am a licensed clinical psychologist, none of these guests are my patients, nor does anything I say constitute medical advice.

The views conveyed during our conversations do not reflect the views, positions or policies of any private or public organization. This is simply a series of conversations with people who have some connection to hardship, suicide, mental health or loss.

There is so much we can learn from one another. So let's get started.

Timothy Brien: 00:00:38

This is Timothy Bryan, producer of One Minute Can Save a Life and owner of TKB Podcast Studio which you can find@tkb podcast studio.com this episode is co branded by Governor Gordon's office and podcast the Morning Gather and prospertogether.net and its podcast One Minute Can Save a Life. Both podcasts bring you this special production as the winter holidays approach.

While this is a joyous time for many, it is also a hard time for those who are alone for the holidays and who have lost loved ones.

If you or someone you know is grappling with difficulties which may or may not include thoughts of killing oneself, please call or text 988, which is the Wyoming Crisis lifeline today.

Kent Corso: 00:01:34

Our guest is Governor Gordon, Governor of Wyoming. Welcome, sir.

Governor Gordon: 00:01:39

It's nice to be here. Thanks Kent, for inviting me on.

Kent Corso: 00:01:42

We're grateful to have you. And before we get started into some more of the topic, let me just ask you a more general question.

You've been very busy during your time in office, especially addressing the topic of mental health. Why is it important to you?

Governor Gordon: 00:01:58

I grew up here, loved the place. We had great neighbors, the Schiffers. We were little Valley up by kc.

One of my very best friend, the godfather of my kids was a guy named John who volunteered. John Schiffer, volunteered to go to Vietnam. He was a river rat, came back and really suffered from a lot of things.

He cared a lot about mental, mental illness. And you know, we didn't know the names that we were talking about at the time. It was, it was all of that.

But he spent quite a bit of time working on that issue. He's got, as I said, godparent of my, of my children.

And when my wife, my first wife was hit by a young man on the way to town that one early morning, my kids were 4 and 2. And just that devastation was incredible to me.

And I, you know, people kept sending me books about how men can't deal with a parent of two daughters and so on and so forth. And I Reached out immediately because I didn't want my kids to have the trauma that I was worried about.

And I had a great opportunity talking with a wonderful guy who said, yeah, we'll come in, we can talk. But most importantly, you have friends, you have family. Talk to them. They're going to be really, really helpful. Let your kids talk to them.

And so, you know, for me, there's been this.

The resources are there, need to have the ability to do that, but also just knowing that there are friends and people that you could care about and then seeing what that's doing in Wyoming, where we have so many suicides, so many, so many challenges. Just it's been an issue that's grown with me.

Kent Corso: 00:03:38

Appreciate that background.

It sounds like what you're saying is when you went through a tragic time in your family, the guidance you were given from a professional was to engage your support system, whether that includes close friends, close family. And no doubt you were also modeling that for your children.

Governor Gordon: 00:03:56

Yeah, I think that's a very good way to put it. And for me, just knowing that somebody was willing to listen and understanding how much they cared was super important.

Kent Corso: 00:04:10

Why should mental health matter to others across the state?

Governor Gordon: 00:04:14

Well, as I said, Wyoming's a phenomenal state. You know, you'd think, gosh, with all the mountains here, with everything, we ought to be able to enjoy everything.

And yet it's just crushing to me to go to communities and hear that they've, you know, had three or four high school students in. In my kids time growing up, they had a couple kids in elementary school who died by suicide. You know, it was tough.

And then you start seeing the statistics. We're third in the, in. In the country, we were second. So we've made a little bit of progress.

But I think Wyoming people are so independent and so resilient.

And there's all that view about being a tough cowboy that, you know, when communities come to you or when people come to you, or when families come to you and say, I never saw this coming. I don't understand why it's happening.

You know, this young man or young lady or my grandpa or, you know, this veteran had everything they could live for. So for Wyoming, I don't think there's any community where there. This hasn't been an issue that people have had to talk about.

Not, you know, there's all the lovely terms that we have about it, but really, most importantly, it's people wanting help.

Kent Corso: 00:05:35

I think there are some important things to unpack there in what you just said. So Going back for a moment, there is no community that hasn't been touched by this.

I wonder if the majority of our listeners know that Wyoming has been in the top three every year for the last 10 years in terms of highest rates of suicide. And absolutely, we're grateful for any gains we make in this area. But at some point we also have to see that it is shifting a little bit.

It's not the middle aged white male who owns a firearm who's dying by suicide. To your point, there are children and teenagers now who make up a more significant percentage of those who are dying by suicide.

Governor Gordon: 00:06:16

Right, right.

Kent Corso: 00:06:17

And so in some communities that we've been working in with Prosper, we are finding that there's a response to suicide prevention that sounds a bit like this. Why should I care if someone else wants to kill themselves? We all have autonomy, we all have freedom.

If they're going to kill themselves, it's their choice. Do you have any thoughts about that sort of a sentiment?

Governor Gordon: 00:06:41

Well, it makes no sense to me.

If you ran into somebody who was injured, you know, whether it was by their own fault or not, would you be saying, oh gosh, I'm not going to help you, you know, deal with it? Humanity would say we need to respond. We are a community first and foremost and we care about the people that.

Kent Corso: 00:07:01

Are in that community. That's an important thing you just said is I think that you're equating a physical crisis or a physical emergency with a mental health one.

I don't think it's speaking out of turn to say there are some Wyomingites who don't really believe in mental health. The idea that it's not really a thing. But I hear you saying quite the opposite.

Governor Gordon: 00:07:22

Well, absolutely. As you sort of reflect on one's life, you remember these incidents that you never really paid that much attention to when you were a kid.

And I do remember we had a neighbor who had just come back from Vietnam and it was great sport for some of the folks to bang on the side, you know, tin wall to it because sheep want to go through with the sides blocked off and they'd bang on it and he'd duck and they, you know, obviously a great sport, but for him it was traumatic. And so I think there is a physical component.

And the more that I've, you know, the more I've been around it, it is a multidimensional kind of issue and not one that you can just sort of segment off in a part of the brain and, you know, they're sick or Whatever it is, it's much more than that.

Kent Corso: 00:08:11

I think you make a great point. It's not something you can quarantine off in some part of the brain. And in many cases, suicide occurs outside of mental health.

In other words, there is a percentage of suicides where the person does have a mental health issue or diagnosis. And yet there are some studies showing up to 53% of adult suicides where there's no mental health diagnosis.

And so there is this sense, I think, among many people, that suicide is a psychiatric issue only when the reality is it is what happens when life throws way more at you than you're able to handle. And that's not any kind of a criticism of what Wyomingites are capable of. They are a very resilient group of people.

But humans are humans, and we're not invincible. Sadly, we're not divine. We wish we perhaps were, but. But we're human.

Governor Gordon: 00:09:07

Absolutely. And it's an interesting, I think, irony that sometimes it takes far more strength to say, I need some help.

And I remember reflecting on Sally's death, it just saying, I've got to be strong for my kids, and I can't let them down. I've got to be, you know, fierce. And then I said, first thing I've got to do is I've got to make sure that I'm taking care of myself.

So I'm going to reach out to the neighbor that I mentioned that said, happy to come in, have a conversation, but rely on your friends. And the friends were there.

Kent Corso: 00:09:49

So the myth that cowboys don't ask for help, there's a kernel of truth to it, but at the same time, it's not true in many cases. Do ranchers, you know, you're from Wyoming. I am not from Wyoming. Do ranchers and farmers ever seek help just getting the job done?

Governor Gordon: 00:10:06

Yeah, I think it's a hard thing as a prideful moment for that. But when you think about brandings, when you think about big gatherings, everybody comes together. Here's the other side of that.

And I think this is one that people should take in mind all the time. And I do certainly, if my neighbor's in trouble, I'm the first one there to help them, whether I like them or not.

If they've got a fire going on on their place, I'm there. That's what we do. And that's the piece that I think a lot of people tend to forget.

And was a great reminder to me was I can reach out and I do need help, and somebody is going to be there to help me and they're not going to be judgmental like he couldn't get that done. It's, you know, I'm glad that I helped.

Kent Corso: 00:10:51

I think you raise a really good point there.

Wyoming has perhaps one of the most extreme climates and other conditions that requires the people who live here to be that much more tough, resilient, rugged. But also it makes a lot of sense that they would seek help putting out a fire in maybe their pasture or a field or somewhere.

That there aren't natural boundaries to stop the fire and to assume one can do it alone is just not realistic.

What's unfortunate is if we crosswalk that over to life problems, emotions, mental health, it's harder for people to feel comfortable asking for help. So what about that cultural value?

Oftentimes when we're training people in the proactive reduction of suicide in populations via evidence based research, which is what prosper stands for, when we're training people how to help, it leverages the culture.

And if you value independence and self reliance, is there room to teach these rugged cowboys how to help themselves, especially if they're not inclined to ask for help?

Governor Gordon: 00:12:05

Absolutely. And I think, you know, we're going to talk, I hope, about all the things that we're doing in Wyoming and the various communities.

I think sort of reducing the issue of I'm having to go to a shrink.

I have somebody who maybe understands maybe not exactly what I'm going through, but something similar and it's sort of an entry you into just being able to have a conversation. Here's what's going on in my head. Am I, you know, am I expressing myself in a way that makes sense to you or things like that?

I think, you know, those are. And I think particularly at Wyoming, you know, we struggle a little bit with funding and it's obviously hard to get the resources.

And so part of, I think what we're looking at is how do we bootstrap ourselves?

If you're thinking about, I'm not willing to admit that I need help, understanding that there's a community that is there to help is perhaps, you know, a great way that we can reduce the sort of self imposed chagrin.

Kent Corso: 00:13:15

So I appreciate what you're saying there, Governor.

On one hand you're saying, look, if you can bring yourself to go see a professional, it's not going to hurt and maybe they can give you some input or some feedback or just be a sounding board that helps validate something you're already doing. On the other hand, I also hear you Saying it doesn't have to be a professional.

Governor Gordon: 00:13:37

Well, and I think your point is absolutely crucial because training is important. Just being sympathetic and listening and empathetic is valuable.

But also having someone who has the ability to understand the circumstances, the dynamics, some of the physiology that's associated just helps to inform the discussion and give somebody more complete understanding.

Kent Corso: 00:14:05

I love what you're saying. So knowledge is power, as the saying goes.

And so if the professional is able to impart some knowledge about how the body works with stress, or how sleep can be improved, or how mood can be improved, why not learn and then take that information home and incorporate it into your own life? Frankly, that's what all of the clinical research says works anyway.

It's not that talking to someone for five or 10 years is necessarily the best way ahead. Now, certainly one size doesn't fit all, so different people need different things.

But the idea that one good use of a professional is to gain valuable knowledge to then go home and sort of do it yourself, that's not a stretch from what should be happening now. A few minutes ago you talked about funding.

We've sort of hovered on the topic of barriers to mental health care, mental health treatment, and I think those are tied to some of your initiatives, such as the why We Care initiative.

Can you talk a little bit about what you see as some of the barriers to improving mental health and suicide and maybe some of the barriers to accessing mental health?

Governor Gordon: 00:15:14

Absolutely. That was, I think, the real effort.

And it came about because we had all the branches, the legislature was quite interested in making sure that the appropriations they were making, the programs that they were recommending were being valuable, were meeting the needs of people with community mental health care centers. The judiciary recognized that there is another path besides just incarceration that's valuable.

Working with the Chief Justice, Kate Fox, working with some of the legislators and on our side, on the executive side, bringing our agencies together collaboratively. You know, we were ever really to talk about how can we address across the spectrum of resources and across the spectrum of needs in the best way.

It's an ongoing project. But you know, there are sort of five principles that we really cared about. One was access to care. The second was affordability of care.

We wanted to make sure that quality of care was also involved, innovation, understanding that the science and the experience is always changing and always improving. And then we really wanted to, across all sides of government, find Wyoming relevant suicide prevention and anti stigma efforts.

And which is why we have as many different efforts going on in the state as we do. As you pointed out, it's not a one size fits all. It's not a recipe.

But the core goal of this campaign was to embrace sort of changing the culture around the issue of suicide.

In specific, we wanted to make sure Wyomingites now and in the future felt empowered to seek services, understood they had support and could engage in healthy behaviors that could support both physical and emotional health. These were key to it.

Kent Corso: 00:17:21

One thing you just said that I'd like to drill down on a little bit is you said we wanted to change culture. The word change is scary enough for people, and when listeners hear the words change culture, that might raise some eyebrows.

What do you mean by change culture? Isn't our culture great?

Governor Gordon: 00:17:39

No, I think Wyoming has great culture, and I'm certainly its biggest proponent. What I will say is we went all over the state just listening to communities, hearing from each community.

And when a community comes and is heartbroken because, you know, a large percentage of their are now gone. You know, a class, you know, out of 12 students, if one dies by suicide, that's horrendous.

And if our culture is just to grieve about that person and not to change, to sort of say, what could we have done better? How could we have responded? How could we make that?

As you've pointed out, I think sort of thinking of it, it has more of a cultural phenomenon that we need to address as opposed to a specific incident or a set of circumstances that happened at that particular time. I think it's key.

Kent Corso: 00:18:35

I think you're right, especially when there's a clear pattern over several years where the numbers are just not taking a nosedive. They are either steady or increasing again. Most recently, we've had some decreases in those numbers, which is fantastic.

I really love what you're saying here about culture and the way you bring it back to our children.

It's almost what we were talking about 10 minutes ago when I said, there's that sentiment out there that why should I care if someone wants to kill themselves?

My response to that after hearing what you just said, Governor, is what are we teaching our children if our children are watching the adults around them kill themselves?

If we truly want to get upstream and be proactive, we've got to be doing more to teach our kids about safety in the same way we teach them about fire safety, firearm safety, safe touches, stranger danger, all of these other safety issues that are so critical, we wouldn't think twice about teaching them. But we do think twice about suicide or mental health.

So I think I'm Answering my own question here, when you say change culture, what you're talking about is helping us understand that the more we invest upstream by teaching our kids, the fewer suicides and mental health problems they're probably going to have.

Governor Gordon: 00:19:53

Well, that would be the hope.

And this is maybe a strange sort of tangent, but as you were talking, I was thinking about if you have a football team or a volleyball team that just always loses, is that the culture you want to have, go forward where you want to encourage? You know, we can change this culture. We can have a winning attitude. We can be much better about that.

And that to me is something that is so important.

And I think about our veterans community, I mean, that's from family experience as well as close friends who have dealt with moral injury that sort of sneaks up on them way later than I dealt with all that.

And now, and now this is coming back to me and I'm now 80 some odd years old and I just can't get rid of these, you know, things that are bothering me. I'm never going to say, gosh, let's ignore that because that's not a good thing.

And that's what's been kind of fun about seeing some of the progress we've made in the veterans community. Because again, it's not a one size fits all approach.

It's people who care that are reaching out, that are trying to find entries that people feel comfortable with that they.

Kent Corso: 00:21:06

Can deal with well. And you're also hitting on something very fundamental and something very simple there.

When we reach out to check on someone, we are inherently communicating that we care and that they matter. And we know that connectedness reduces suicide risk.

Let's be honest, it's hard to connect when your nearest neighbor is 50 miles away and when there's only maybe one day a week where you go down into town and see people. So some of this, we of course don't want to blame people, that everybody's doing the best they can.

It's the nature of living in a rural or frontier state.

Governor Gordon: 00:21:44

Well, and times, you know, I think this year, devastating fires, people lost a tremendous amount of their winter feed. They lost a lot of infrastructure. You know, this is my life's work and it all went up in a few moments.

And, you know, now maybe I'm really struggling with, you know, what was it worth? Why should I bother?

And to your point, I think, you know, our ability to team up with the beyond the Weather campaign, to sort of try to find again, mechanisms and forums that people unfortunately, so much now in our culture is about how great, great I am and all the great stuff I'm doing and it's not real helpful, you know, it's on the other side. So being there and having the opportunity to talk about. Yeah, these are the issues that are coming up. But again, changing that culture.

So it's more of a winning kind of idea.

Kent Corso: 00:22:35

So when I hear you say changing of the culture, what I was just thinking of is getting people to shift from fear based ways of interacting and operating to ones that are more confident, more comfortable.

They understand that when someone is in crisis or distress and they're thinking about suicide, it is just as severe as someone who's having a heart attack.

Governor Gordon: 00:22:59

Absolutely.

Kent Corso: 00:23:00

And then in addition, where we might culturally think to ourselves, let me not poke my nose where it doesn't belong, they don't want me to ask about their private stuff. It's actually the opposite. They absolutely want someone to reach out and say, are you ok? Is there anything I can do to help?

Governor Gordon: 00:23:18

Yeah. And I think it's a point you've made a couple of times.

You know, if a person's having a heart attack or you know, something traumatic happening to them, the fact that's evidenced in the fact that they're slumped over, whatever, compared to somebody who's also having a traumatic event, mentally, those are the same. They are. And I think simply saying, are you okay? This what we would do with somebody with a heart attack.

Kent Corso: 00:23:44

And you've hit the nail on the head there. It's just being a good human. It's saying, are you okay? And then being kind enough to just listen to whatever they unload.

It's not that you're going to fix it, it's not that you're a doctor, but it's that human connection. And it's when someone takes the time to reach out, it reassures people that they matter. And that's what matters, ironically.

Governor Gordon: 00:24:08

And Dr. Corso, I mean, coming back to that, you know, victorious kind of attitude, that culture change that says we can do it.

One of the statistics I've heard you mention a time or two is that incredible statistic about somebody who was really serious about attempting suicide, who didn't, and their likelihood of having that happen again.

Kent Corso: 00:24:30

Yeah. I think what you're referring to is the research on people who attempt once and live through it. The vast majority will never attempt again.

Now, having said that, what's tricky about the statistics is that the majority of people who do die by suicide did have a prior attempt. So it means there's this small group of people who may live through an attempt and then will absolutely attempt again until they end their lives.

And so it's eye opening for us because we have to remember that to have an attempt does place someone at future risk.

But at the same time, if we look at all of the data and the big picture from sort of a distance, the majority of people who attempt once will never attempt again. Sort of like 12.4 million people think about it every year and 49,000 will die by it. 49,000 is way too many. Even one person is too many.

Having said that, it speaks to the resilience where many people might think about it and they don't act on it. And so we've got to help people understand those numbers because it paints a very different picture.

Feeling suicidal is not synonymous with going out of your mind or going crazy or being mentally ill. It's a sign that you're overwhelmed. And it's a lot more common than we would think.

But because we don't talk about it, we don't know that it's more common.

For those listeners who are decision makers, leaders, business owners, faith leaders, managers, what would you say to empower them to be part of the solution? If we can agree that suicide is a social issue, that means everybody plays a role?

Governor Gordon: 00:26:11

Well, I would say, and perhaps it's a cliche, but it's hard to know what's in a person's life.

And we really need to be reaching out and especially this time of year, thinking about ways to just be a bit less hairy, a bit more tuned into those around us and approach others with kindness and connectedness. And for leaders, I think it's really important to be connected and help others feel connected. Help others feel that you care.

I mean, that's one of the great things of being a leader, is that important piece. You should start a conversation. We need to let people know that it's not a problem. If you don't feel okay, that it's actually a normal thing.

And you should reach out and have that conversation to elected officials and decision makers and care providers. I know the walk is challenging. There are limited resources.

It is my strong belief though, that there are tools that having the dialogue going and understanding what is being provided, having a sense of why we care. That program is, that initiative has been put together for members of the faith community and others to be able to reach out with.

It's not a recipe for success. It's simply sets of tools that you can use to help people. That's the reason you do the work that you do.

Kent Corso: 00:27:35

Thanks for that. I want to sort of call out soulshopmovement.org which is a faith based suicide prevention program.

They were throughout the state in September and they did a fabulous job. So for those listeners who are part of the faith community and thinking, you know, this is a very secular conversation, it's not.

So I would encourage listeners to check out soulshotmovement.org I appreciate Governor that you alluded to the fact that it's the holiday season and that is a time where things can be dicey, where the expectation or the tradition is to come together and be joyous. Many have lost a loved one over the holidays, even just to natural causes of death.

So your input and your guidance to connect and show people you care is so timely.

If any of our listeners are struggling right now with thoughts of self harm or suicide, what guidance do you have for them or what resource would you point them toward?

Governor Gordon: 00:28:31

Well, I would say that we do have and this is very important to me because a dear friend of mine who was a classmate of my oldest daughter and sons called me and said, you know, I've had these moments and every time I call the National Suicide Crisis lifeline I'm getting somebody outside the state. Well, Wyoming finally put a 988.

You can text it or you can call a 988 and most of the time you're going to get somebody in Wyoming who may know where Otto is. And so talking to somebody that knows Wyoming, I think that's a critical thing.

If you're feeling in crisis, know that that 988 number is there for you. We are deeply rooted in a culture of pendants and self reliance. And to me that is coupled with the fact that we want to help our neighbors.

We would none of us be successful in this climate if we didn't have the help of our neighbors. So people shouldn't struggle in silence.

And if this is you know that you're not alone, know that you have a neighbor who cares and you know nothing else. You matter to me, you matter to Wyoming.

And if you're struggling, please utilize resources that are available in your community and for all of Wyoming residents.

I empower you to invest in this new culture that normalizes the conversation of seeking assistance when needed, educating yourself on the programs and trainings that are offered in our state state so you can continue the Wyoming spirit of caring for our neighbors and keeping our communities strong.

We can change this culture where we always talk about we're being in the bottom three and start talking about what a winning season is going to look like.

Kent Corso: 00:30:18

I love that message of hope, Governor. And I'll close with you mentioned getting education, being empowered to learn more.

We are doing a free training online in February and we'll put information about that on the website where you can access this podcast. Governor, thank you so much for your time and for your heartfelt message.

You are clearly committed to the well being of Wyomingites and I think that's very admirable.

Governor Gordon: 00:30:44

Thank you, Dr. Corso. I think what you've done in sort of bringing a sense of we can talk about this and we can be productive in that conversation.

That's been a real epiphany to me. Just the sort of the vision of helping somebody who's in trouble. We do that. And so thank you.

Kent Corso: 00:31:03

Thank you for listening to this episode of One Minute Can Save a Life. Take care of yourself. Take care of your neighbor. Be bold. Ask the hard questions. Because if you don't, who will.