Suicide Prevention Policy in Wyoming: No Threat to Autonomy, Just a Thorough Way to Address Local Needs

Jen Davis: 00:00:00

Foreign.

Kent Corso: 00:00:05

Hi, my name is Kent Corso and I'm your host for this episode of One Minute Can Save a Life. While I am a licensed clinical psychologist, none of these guests are my patients, nor does anything I say constitute medical advice.

The views conveyed during our conversations do not reflect the views, positions or policies of any private or public organization. This is simply a series of conversations with people who have some connection to hardship, suicide, mental health, or loss.

There's so much we can learn from one another. So let's get started today. Our guest is Jen Davis from Governor Gordon's office. Jen, would you mind introducing yourself?

Jen Davis: 00:00:44

Well, good morning, kid. My name is Jen Davis. I work in Governor Gordon's office, the governor of Wyoming, as the Health and Human Services policy advisor.

Kent Corso: 00:00:55

Thank you. Give us a quick rundown about the role of the Health and Human Services policy advisor.

Jen Davis: 00:01:03

Well, my role is pretty wide ranging.

So my portfolio covers Department of Health, Department of Family Services, Department of Corrections, Department of Insurance, and the Veterans Commission. So it's really wonderful because all of those intersect so well together.

And where that has all come together in my work in the governor's office is through behavioral health. We have been doing a lot of work cross agency in this space.

That has really been a benefit to be able to pull all those agencies together in one spot.

Kent Corso: 00:01:40

So if I understand your role correctly, it sounds like all of the initiatives, ideas, programs that come out of those departments you mentioned, they look to you to codify those changes or codify those programs and make them more official through policy. Am I understanding you?

Jen Davis: 00:01:58

Yeah, that's correct.

So my role in the governor's office is really to support our agencies and help kind of see the big picture of their programmatic work and where they're focused and look at the policy that's already in the state. And do we need to reshape that? Do we need to change it? Do we need to add something?

And so then that all rolls up through our office through the policy discussion. And.

And so not only do I get to work closely with our state agencies, but then in turn I work really closely with the other branches of government, of the impacts that it would have in the judicial system, and then of course, developing the policy with the legislative body.

Kent Corso: 00:02:41

Okay, so then there's a whole other subset of work sort of externally with the legislature.

Jen Davis: 00:02:47

Yes, I'm very fortunate. The majority of my work is centered around the Joint Labor, Health and Social Service Committee.

That's where the majority of the bills land that I focus on. However, my policy area does straddle into the Judiciary Committee, also straddles into the Transportation and Military Committee.

So really, I have a great opportunity to meet a lot of the legislators, even outside of the NEED Committee.

Kent Corso: 00:03:18

Excellent. Thank you so much for the detailed description.

Before our listeners tune out, I would like to state the obvious and hopefully you don't take this personally or find this insulting. Policy is a real snoozer for a lot of people. It takes a very special person to not only do policy, but to have such a passion for it.

So how did you get into policy work?

Jen Davis: 00:03:42

You know, actually by accident. Fortunate accident maybe. I actually am a physical therapist background have focused in pediatrics my whole career.

And through my career working with children, saw a lot of issues that were around social things that just were beyond my control as a physical therapist and beyond my expertise, quite frankly. But knew that there was a lot of opportunity for some change that we really needed to consider to support families in a more meaningful way.

And so I just started to look for opportunities where I could be more engaged about the system.

I think policy really comes about when you like to look at things from a systems approach, because you can't drive good policy and make decisions if you're only thinking in a silo. You really have to think about how one thing affects another. And I love that.

And I think that's what's exciting about policy, is you get to look at problems that are occurring or challenges that are out there and think, okay, what can we do to solve that? And. And that's where policy comes in. And so it is really exciting. So no snoozing during this podcast because it is really exciting stuff.

Kent Corso: 00:04:58

Okay, I'll take your word for it.

So for many of our listeners who may still be considering clicking out of this podcast and saying, you know what, policy just doesn't get my blood pumping. It is not exciting to me. Let's ask another question about it. I think many people are used to looking at problems from their own perspective.

So whether they are looking at crime or poverty, homelessness, mental health or just health in general, they might think, well, here's how it looks for my shoes.

What I appreciate about what you're saying is we need people who are willing to look at it from a system perspective, from a higher elevation, not from in the weeds. Having said that, a lot of Wyomingites are not thrilled with big, authoritative ivory tower on high government bodies. So how do.

How do you make policy something that is not only palatable to Wyomingites, but something that's interesting to them?

Jen Davis: 00:05:58

It goes to one Thing that you said there, people come with how it's impacting them. Right.

Because we all want to live a better life, and we all want to live a better life for the children that we'll be leaving behind, the grandchildren that we're leaving behind. So it really starts with, this is a problem for me, this is a problem for my family.

Well, I think that our job in policy is to help people understand the full system impact of that.

If there's one thing saying I am homeless and this is a problem for me and my family, well, when you start digging into that, homelessness is not just based on one thing. It is a compilation of a variety of things. It could be, you know, high cost of housing. It could be lack of resources within the community.

It could be lack of employment opportunity. So it's really digging into what are all the things that impact homelessness, and then how do we start to address the issue?

And so it's like a big puzzle. So if you like doing puzzles, it is a really exciting thing to think about. How do these things all intersect?

Because sometimes what happens is you start working in one area because you really think that, you know, this is how you're going to solve the problem. But what you've done is created a problem on the other side if you're not looking at the full picture.

So you might be helping homelessness, but now you have just impacted the food distribution center on the other side, which you didn't mean to do as a consequence.

So again, it's being able to look at that from that higher elevation, as you said, and get people excited about the ways that these things all intersect. Because then you can solve multiple problems at one time instead of just one.

Kent Corso: 00:07:50

That's great. What I hear you saying, Jen, is that this isn't about autonomy. This isn't about government being a threat to autonomy.

What it's about is listening to people on the ground in communities with what matters to them, what bothers them, the ways that our system is not working for them. And then stepping back and looking from a distance, we can use the words higher elevation. We can use that sort of a metaphor.

How do we fix this at a system level? Where are the barriers to fixing it?

What ancillary advantages do we have when we fix this so that you can better the lives of individual residents in communities?

Jen Davis: 00:08:31

Yeah, and, you know, and I think what we're not always good about looking at policy development is can't do these things without the individuals that it impacts. Being involved and engaged in the conversation. We have to have them as a partner in this conversation about what is really happening.

And we all have different experiences. And so we need to understand it from a variety of perspectives as well. And I think that's the advantage of doing policy in a governor's office.

Although you're really focusing on things you can change at the state level as the governor's office, you can't just look about what's happening just within state agency, because your responsibility as the governor is all the people of Wyoming.

And so as we think about that, it's really important that we're understanding what's happening in our communities, even outside of our state agencies, because again, they think about it very differently as what is their role as the state.

And we have to think about that in even a more comprehensive manner of how do we engage the others in the community, the stakeholders, the private philanthropic community. It's really about how do we all own this together and make a change.

Kent Corso: 00:09:50

I love that. The idea that we are all in this together, we own it together, we have a responsibility to work together to improve the system. That's fantastic.

So let's dive into the weeds a little bit. What are those issues that are popping up in various communities that your office has had to address?

Jen Davis: 00:10:10

Well, I had the fortune, or misfortune, as some might call it. I started here right before the pandemic. And so the pandemic changed many things in the health and human service array. As we all are aware, right?

Regardless of how you feel about the pandemic, it changed things in our world.

And so as we look at that, we had to look at how did that change things in Wyoming, how did it change our workforce, how did it change our service delivery and how did it change the mental health of our citizens? And so Governor Gordon has been tremendous leader in looking at healthcare. Even prior to the pandemic, it was one of his priorities.

And then post pandemic you were kind of forced to look at the healthcare system, but not only the healthcare system, but how is it impacting people within the educational system of going back to school?

How is it impacting those that were isolated for long periods of time, time away from their friends and families, you know, in our long term care facilities? So it's really looking at all of that.

And as we really started thinking about things of where to go next is we really needed to focus on the mental health of our citizens of Wyoming and ensuring that they were in a place to be able to return to work, to be productive again in the capacity that they Wish to be. And also thinking about how does that impact our already high suicide rate in Wyoming, that we continue to always be in the top five.

And that's really concerning for the governor.

Kent Corso: 00:11:48

So as we think about all of those things you just described, let's get into the weeds just a little bit. What kinds of mental health problems were people struggling with during the pandemic? After the pandemic?

Let's try to avoid labels, Jen, because I think sometimes that triggers misperceptions or misunderstandings. I mean, people were isolated. You mentioned suicide. What else were people struggling with?

Jen Davis: 00:12:12

You know, I think one of the things that we heard a lot was just loneliness. A lot of people were. Were lonely. You know, we're. We're social beings. And so everybody was at home.

And so even lots of times with maybe your close family there, you weren't able to connect with your friends and your faith community and. And all of those others that we typically in. Engage with. And so I think people were just lonely.

I think another thing that we saw a lot of is with that loneliness was the disconnection, that sense of maybe not feeling like they belonged to something we heard a lot of during the pandemic and sadness. I mean, just sad.

There was a lot of loss during the pandemic and after the pandemic, not just with loved ones who maybe died during that period, but whether it had been from the virus or something else, you know, weren't able to say goodbye in many ways.

And so there was a lot of feelings of loss, loss of employment, loss of connection, just a lot of things that impacted the immediate mental health of individuals. But then as we. How does that impact then reintegration as things started to open back up post pandemic?

Kent Corso: 00:13:32

I see. And when I think about Wyoming communities, one of the words that comes to my mind immediately is resilient.

And so when we think about how resilient communities are, what made this period of time so different?

Jen Davis: 00:13:48

You know, I think you're right. Wyoming prides itself on being resilient, being tough. That's part of our culture.

I think what made this different is you couldn't just go and take advantage of, you know, being with a friend for coffee or, you know, going to down to the market and having a conversation. Where we do a lot of isolation is not a new thing in Wyoming. You know, our communities are very small.

We have people who live out on hundreds of acres of ranches that, you know, don't see people for days, weeks at a time. So sometimes that's not New. But I think where it was different is the opportunity just didn't exist.

And so when something isn't there that you can do, it certainly feels a lot different than when maybe you don't do it. But. No, you can if you want to. But I think what it really speaks to is that resiliency that you talked about.

Whether it's a pandemic, whether it is, you know, a tornado that comes through an area, things don't stop, right? Life keeps going.

And I think that that is something that we need to acknowledge, but then we need to acknowledge the difficulty that comes alongside that and walk alongside people during that period of time and help to ensure that the resources are there and available.

And knowing where to find those resources, I think is one of the biggest challenges in Wyoming, is because we are so far spread out and the resources are limited in our smaller communities. So really helping people to know, if I can't find it here at home, where can I find it?

And I think that's our responsibility to help ensure, as we're walking along those roads during whatever challenging time it is, we're able to point them in the right direction.

Kent Corso: 00:15:38

So it sounds like you're saying two things, Jen. One is that access is limited, so how do we boost access?

The second thing is, once we do have access, how do we teach people where the access is and how to access those programs or services?

So I know there are many, many exciting things that have been going on in the Department of Public Health, in the Department of Behavioral Health, the Department of Health more broadly, both aligning very closely with the governor's vision and the Governor's behavioral health initiatives, but also some very unique things.

Can you talk about some of the exciting things that the governor's office and the various departments and agencies have been doing to address all of the challenges that communities are struggling with?

Jen Davis: 00:16:23

Yeah, happy to. You know, one of my favorite things about Governor Gordon is his sense of community and his commitment to collaboration.

I very much believe in collaboration. I don't believe you can do any of this work in a vacuum. And Governor Gordon shares that passion and is very much a partner with the Wyoming citizens.

And so I've been very grateful to work in that environment because I think it has set us up so successfully to work across the three branches of government. That has really been his priority in the mental health initiative is we can't do one without the other.

And so making sure that we're all partnering together to move things forward.

So one of the great things that has come out of that that partnered really closely with the legislative branch, Some of our champions there, our judiciary branch, and then our executive branch, primarily department of health.

And that is we set up a diversion court for behavioral health individuals that had chronic mental health conditions that we were seeing repeatedly within the judicial system. And it was not a good fit of where they needed to be. They weren't getting the services that they need.

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We've seen communities rally around those individuals that are struggling within our communities that we see day after day and really changing the narrative about how we help those individuals and what their challenges are. And so that has been a real success.

I think some of the other things that we've seen within our state agencies, A big effort that has been in the works for about a decade is our behavioral health redesign. We moved that system, completely changed it from what it used to be of a model where it was open to everybody.

We have changed it into a priority population design so that individuals who are the most vulnerable and are maybe actively in crisis or coming out of the correctional system or involved in the child welfare system have priority within the state funded behavioral health programming so that we ensure that those individuals can get the services that they need at the time that they need it. Again, our resources are limited in Wyoming, and so we wanted to be sure that we're using them to the best of our ability.

And that's really been a charge led by our department of health. And they've done a great job with that. Our public health division, as you know, looks at population health initiatives.

They house our suicide prevention programming, all of our prevention programming, actually, and do a lot of great work around training and education within our communities. Support at the local level.

Every county in Wyoming has a community prevention specialist that focuses at the local level and that is supported through the department of health office.

Our behavioral health unit is responsible for the behavioral health redesign, but is also instrumental in our drug court system that was recently moved over to do our judiciary branch.

And so lots of great things happening that really only is successful through the coordination between the three branches of government and then the coordination with the stakeholders on the ground doing the work.

Kent Corso: 00:20:10

Right.

So this combination of getting input from those on the ground to understand what's important to them, and then collaborating across all branches of government and then even within various facets of Each branch to ensure that the solutions you're developing are not only cost effective, but also realistic to implement so they truly affect the problem. Or maybe a better term is remediate the problem.

Jen Davis: 00:20:36

Exactly. You know, our department of Family Services focuses a lot then on the social service issue.

You know, when we looked at the diversion court, the only way that that's going to be successful is if we help get them the resources that they need, like a home, shelter, food, all of those things that then draw in our Department of Family Services benefits to help ensure that people have access to those services while then addressing their behavioral health needs as well. So it really is a comprehensive approach to thinking about people as holistic beings.

Not thinking of them as whatever the current problem is, but them as a person. And how do you address all of that?

Kent Corso: 00:21:22

You've been around for about five years. What would you say is the biggest threat to continued progress and achievement in these areas?

Jen Davis: 00:21:34

You know, I always think the biggest threat is lack of understanding, lack of knowledge. And I think that that is something that every person needs to hold themselves responsible for, is we need to know what the issues are.

We need to know what's impacting our communities and the people in our communities. We need to know what our neighbor's struggling with. We need to know what our family's struggling with.

And so I think it's getting connected within your community to know what the issues are.

And I think if we don't do that and do that well, that always creates a challenge and hinders progress from moving forward, because then what happens is we end up back in the circle of having the conversation about, you know, what are the issues, how can we solve them? And then we just get on this hamster wheel and we never get off of it because we continue to have the same conversation and not move forward.

So it's really understanding. And then the next part of that that I think is a hindrance if we don't do it well, is building those connections.

You have to get involved and be connected. And if we're not, then we're not going to be successful in solving problems.

Kent Corso: 00:22:51

So what I hear you saying is that not only is connectedness critical to sharing information and developing a mutual understanding of the problems and therefore potential solutions, but inherently, when we increase connectedness, we actually reduce all sorts of risks, such as suicide or other mental health issues. So it's funny that you say that because it does have this dual purpose.

It moves things forward when we think of policies and programs and communities thriving.

But it's Also directly reducing risk of suicide, which is something that we often talk about in Prosper, that boosting connectedness reduces suicide risk. So I love that you're. You're sort of achieving two goals at once with. With sort of one action or a series of actions.

We've only got a few minutes left, Jen. So I guess a final question I'd like to ask is, what are you really excited about?

As you see the horizon for where the behavioral health redesign and all the exciting programs that have rolled out, what excites you most? Where are the opportunities in the near future?

Jen Davis: 00:23:59

You know, I think what excites me most is that we are talking about this in Wyoming. We are talking about mental health and stigma and suicide. Those were things that were really brushed under the carpet before.

We just really didn't talk about them. They existed, but it wasn't a conversation we were all really willing to have before, and now we are. And I've seen that shift in Wyoming.

I've seen it across the nation. That excites me. You can't solve a problem if you don't acknowledge a problem. And so that, to me, is exciting.

And I think that will only continue to grow, grow.

And with that being willing to talk about it, that then breeds the opportunity for us to really understand the problem better, understand possible solutions better, and it engages everyone in the conversation. So to me, that is exciting is that we're just talking. Yeah, it gets me started every day. Honestly. I love to just have the conversation.

Kent Corso: 00:25:04

Excellent. Yeah, that. I think that's so true, though, is that it engages people. It empowers people to be part of the solution.

And I was on the meeting earlier in the week with some folks from Sheridan county, and they were saying, look, we've got a lot of support here locally behind mental health and suicide prevention initiatives. But the funny thing about it is some of the folks who are very supportive have this sense that it's going on somewhere else.

They're not aware of how common these struggles are. And it just speaks to the point you made, which is that we are having conversations.

And the more we have conversations, the more we understand how mental health and suicide affect each and every one of us.

Jen Davis: 00:25:46

Yes. And we have to keep talking about it. So that's what gets me excited that we're talking about it.

But it's also one of my biggest fears is that we quit talking about it because we seem to be making progress. And I think that that's just a human nature thing, sometimes is like, okay, well, that seems to be going better. Let's move on to the next thing.

But we cannot. We have to keep our foot on the gas and keep talking about this because there's so much work still to do and we just have got to keep talking.

Kent Corso: 00:26:18

So you heard it from Jen Davis of the governor's office. Keep talking. Keep your foot on the pedal. Keep the conversation going. Thanks so much for being with us, Jen.

Really appreciate all you've shared today and frankly, all you've done for the people of Wyoming.

Jen Davis: 00:26:32

Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to talk with you this morning.

Kent Corso: 00:26:36

Thank you for listening to this episode of One Minute Can Save a Life. Take care of yourself. Take care of your neighbor. Be bold. Ask the hard questions. Because if you don't, who will?

Tim Brien: 00:26:49

Production support for One Minute Can Save a Life was provided by TKB Podcast Studio. To find out more about our services, go to tkbpodcaststudio. Com.